Comments on: Eagle and Condor http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2008/01/eagle-and-condor/ A Guide to Mestizo Shamanism in the Upper Amazon Tue, 07 Feb 2012 18:33:35 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Anonymous http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2008/01/eagle-and-condor/comment-page-1/#comment-452 Anonymous Wed, 20 May 2009 12:54:10 +0000 http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2008/01/eagle-and-condor/#comment-452 clever people rationalize what they want. It is a sickness which has affected every tradition. No, turtle island nations do not have shamanic traditions in any form. that seems evident. correction way is an elevation of person. corrections are an essential truth and sacred in themselves. making excuses is a function of the modern mind and like shamanism, does not exist in traditional context. clever people rationalize what they want. It is a sickness which has affected every tradition. No, turtle island nations do not have shamanic traditions in any form. that seems evident. correction way is an elevation of person. corrections are an essential truth and sacred in themselves. making excuses is a function of the modern mind and like shamanism, does not exist in traditional context.

]]> By: SimonRaven http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2008/01/eagle-and-condor/comment-page-1/#comment-451 SimonRaven Wed, 20 May 2009 09:16:12 +0000 http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2008/01/eagle-and-condor/#comment-451 I was taught that we (Mi'kmaq) don't have "shamans" - as far as I know we don't have such traditions either, and I haven't heard of any that I care to share about, as even talking about them I don't feel is right in this context.<br /><br />That said, that participant should have it explained to them that that diminishing of their person is totally wrong, and it should be explained to them.<br /><br />I'm not too sure about "mix and match", as many elders wouldn't want that, as they're aware that it can cause problems on many levels.... However, I think that the coming together of us northern and our southern cousins is great, and we (re-)learn from each other.<br /><br />Lowering their status? I don't see why. Women are strong, they have that creative force, and are even stronger when menstruating. Many cultures value this, and acknowledge this. Unfortunately some other cultures have taken to mean this is a bad thing, and therefore diminish women. This is a wrongness to me, and to me this is the patriarchal way.<br /><br />My two smokes.... I was taught that we (Mi’kmaq) don’t have “shamans” – as far as I know we don’t have such traditions either, and I haven’t heard of any that I care to share about, as even talking about them I don’t feel is right in this context.

That said, that participant should have it explained to them that that diminishing of their person is totally wrong, and it should be explained to them.

I’m not too sure about “mix and match”, as many elders wouldn’t want that, as they’re aware that it can cause problems on many levels…. However, I think that the coming together of us northern and our southern cousins is great, and we (re-)learn from each other.

Lowering their status? I don’t see why. Women are strong, they have that creative force, and are even stronger when menstruating. Many cultures value this, and acknowledge this. Unfortunately some other cultures have taken to mean this is a bad thing, and therefore diminish women. This is a wrongness to me, and to me this is the patriarchal way.

My two smokes….

]]> By: Steve Beyer http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2008/01/eagle-and-condor/comment-page-1/#comment-38 Steve Beyer Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:56:00 +0000 http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2008/01/eagle-and-condor/#comment-38 Thank you for your very helpful comments. I used the term "lower the status" because that is how the situation was perceived by the participant. Perhaps a better explanation would have changed her view. Or perhaps not. As you know, there are serious debates on whether prohibitions on ritual participation by menstruating women lower their status or not. <br/><br/>I am very sensitive to Native North American concerns about the use of the terms "shaman" or "shamanism" in relation to their spiritual traditions. For example, take a look at my December 10, 2007, post entitled "Who is a Shaman?" The Shuar apparently have no such issue with using the term "shaman" to translate their term uwishín, and I would really like to hear your thoughts on this.<br/><br/>You say that "whoever attempts to bring Sacred Pipe into a shamanic meeting is making a mistake." In this your opinion differs from that of the Federación Shuar, as well as whatever Native North Americans brought the sacred pipe, and I would be very interested in hearing more of your thoughts on why this was a mistake.<br/><br/>Again, thank you for your thoughts. You have raised a number of important points, and I would be eager to continue this discussion. Thank you for your very helpful comments. I used the term “lower the status” because that is how the situation was perceived by the participant. Perhaps a better explanation would have changed her view. Or perhaps not. As you know, there are serious debates on whether prohibitions on ritual participation by menstruating women lower their status or not.

I am very sensitive to Native North American concerns about the use of the terms “shaman” or “shamanism” in relation to their spiritual traditions. For example, take a look at my December 10, 2007, post entitled “Who is a Shaman?” The Shuar apparently have no such issue with using the term “shaman” to translate their term uwishín, and I would really like to hear your thoughts on this.

You say that “whoever attempts to bring Sacred Pipe into a shamanic meeting is making a mistake.” In this your opinion differs from that of the Federación Shuar, as well as whatever Native North Americans brought the sacred pipe, and I would be very interested in hearing more of your thoughts on why this was a mistake.

Again, thank you for your thoughts. You have raised a number of important points, and I would be eager to continue this discussion.

]]> By: SacredPipe http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2008/01/eagle-and-condor/comment-page-1/#comment-37 SacredPipe Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:03:00 +0000 http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2008/01/eagle-and-condor/#comment-37 Saying that Native American Church people attempted to "lower the status" of women by prohibiting them from touching the sacred pipe is very incorrect. Women who are in menstruation have special powers and energies and this "prohibition" is an act of respect which in now way diminishes the "status" of anyone. And shame on everyone involved for allowing such an interpretation to stand and find its way into print. In the first place. In the second place Sacred Pipe has no relationship in any way to shamanic practice. Whoever attempts to bring Sacred Pipe into a shamanic meeting is making a mistake. The two teachings have different origins, intents and results.It was a mistake for sacred Pipe to be involved in such meetings. As very interesting and hopeful as these meetings sound, it does point up problems, just as there are problems aplenty in the language you have used to describe these events. However, what an interesting idea and it is encouraging to know that meetings like this continue.<br/><br/>Turtle heart<br/>Ojibway <br/>Sacred Pipe Saying that Native American Church people attempted to “lower the status” of women by prohibiting them from touching the sacred pipe is very incorrect. Women who are in menstruation have special powers and energies and this “prohibition” is an act of respect which in now way diminishes the “status” of anyone. And shame on everyone involved for allowing such an interpretation to stand and find its way into print. In the first place. In the second place Sacred Pipe has no relationship in any way to shamanic practice. Whoever attempts to bring Sacred Pipe into a shamanic meeting is making a mistake. The two teachings have different origins, intents and results.It was a mistake for sacred Pipe to be involved in such meetings. As very interesting and hopeful as these meetings sound, it does point up problems, just as there are problems aplenty in the language you have used to describe these events. However, what an interesting idea and it is encouraging to know that meetings like this continue.

Turtle heart
Ojibway
Sacred Pipe

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