Comments on: Selling Spirituality

By: Iris

Iris — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:03:20 +0000

Like all other things, money or goods have no fixed value.
In case of healing it becomes more difficult.
Healer and ‘patient’ are entering an undefined relationship.
In a healthy relationship has to be an equal energy exchange.
How much is the healer able to give and what gift is the treated able or willing to give back.
So it’s extremely hard to set a standard for healing and compensation.

In the end what matters is that the relationship between healer and patient should be healthy, this is an individual matter.
If there is no balance in the gift exchange on either side the relationship is not healthy.

This is not too hard to recognize if we live close to our heart.
So a healer can ask whatever he wants and a patient should pay whatever he think it’s worth.
To keep it healthy, don’t ask more or less than you deserve and don’t pay more or less than it’s worth.

By: susanne g. seiler

susanne g. seiler — Mon, 05 Sep 2011 09:03:24 +0000

we’ve just had this discussion within the context of our own shamanic group here in switzerland, and, as a former organizer of workshops and conferences, i’d like to point out that rebates are given to people who have difficulty paying the set fee. i’ve never seen money being a hindrance, whereas wealthy people may become sponsors or donors to the aim of the circle. they often do and may enjoy privileged treatment – here, there and everywhere. or not, if they are not well liked. being a particularly nice or interesting person – or a journalist – may also further admission to the inner circle.

By: Robyn

Robyn — Fri, 12 Nov 2010 02:13:53 +0000

This is the problem, many caucasians are not aware of their extensive past outside of Christianity and have no patience to find it out, it’s also not as sexy as being Native American. Truly, Europeans have a very LONG tradition of cunningcraft and herbal healing and shamanistic activities possibly left over from the steppe peoples (who were caucasian) invasions before Christ.
My second comment is, in the ‘olde’ days, healers were supported by the tribe and/or they contributed as well to the tribe so there was no need to ‘charge’ for their services…. nowadays, there is no interdependence and how exactly are healers to live without payment? I think that this has nothing to do with cultural stealing white people with more money than sense who often die in the sweats.

By: Patricio

Patricio — Mon, 01 Mar 2010 00:42:15 +0000

Greetings:

If some bozo who read that real shamans don’t charge does ceremonies for free does that make them real.

Blessings and Beauty

By: Leah

Leah — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 04:34:07 +0000

Isn’t money just energy, an exchange for another’s energy? If it’s what we have to ‘trade’ for spiritual growth, what’s the harm? As long as the mediator is legitimate and the recipient is willing and able to pay, there should be no issue. As a massage therapist/healer, I have feelings of guilt and chagrin for taking money for my services. What I’ve come to realize is that all interaction is an exchange of energy and money is just that, energy!

By: Mark

Mark — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:02:47 +0000

….good points Len….I saw your reply to compensation for healing and wanted to add a comment if I may. I share your concerns and the concerns outlined in the article but I hold them in a different light now than I used to. In life reciprocity is an important prinicple, that is, equal energy exchange. We can see by the state of the earth’s environment that this principle has been sparsely followed by our species as most of what we do is take. In healing there is also the principle of reciprocity, an exchange of energy. The community shamans were provided for by the community in the old days and as much as many may wish we were still there, we are not. Many share the idea that money is energy, understanding that energy can be used for good or otherwise…..so, if money is energy then payment is energy exchange…….and some abuse it, yes.

By: Sitamun

Sitamun — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 19:30:26 +0000

The issue isn’t compensation, it is cultural theft and exploitation. I was with a fellow shaman at a “New Age” retreat attending a workshop dealing with other, non faith issues and came upon a so-called shamanic ceremony. When we approached to see what these fools were doing jumping over a fire, we were rudely told by non-native people that this was a sacred ceremony. It was not, it was a bon fire with people jumping and hooping like fools. And had they been true shamans they would have recognized their colleagues. Shameful.

The next night another so called non-indigenous person held a ceremony that had them prancing around and strutting like peacocks self-satisfied in their assumed knowledge about an Andean shamanic ceremony. Once again, it was being conducted improperly. How many in attendance will take this travesty away with them and recreate it?

This and the recent sweat lodge deaths point to how people colonialize the faith of indigenous people and then charge for bogus culturally incorrect interpretations.

I had been there before and they were doing another ceremony, which was dangerous if not done correctly. The non-indigenous leader omitted the key element. I was shocked when the woman told me they had not completed the work.

Faith is not just a ceremony that you pay to participate in. The medieval church got into trouble for selling access to God. This concern my indigenous healers is warranted.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:30:20 +0000

Beautiful discussion and questions. I appreciate that the questions persist long after the post has been made, in a very un-internet like fasion.

What I hear in Julia’s frustration (and as an economically struggling person I struggle with the same frustration) is the idea that somehow we are “owed” access to spiritual insight that (here’s the key) someone, somewhere is keeping from us. It wakens the beast called Jealousy to watch those with easy cash access get all the ayahuasca magic they think they can handle, and those of us without the cash struggle to find a way in the door. No magic for us! No healing for the undeserving poor! But I suspect that part of the secret is that no one – really no one – but ourselves is keeping us from the insight and wisdom we desire. No lack of cash is preventing us from being the wisest, most connected, most compassionate humans we can be.

Indigenous wisdom, it seems to me, was borne out of people connected to a particular place, a particular landscape and ecosystem. In North America, some indigenous cultures worshipped buffalo. There are no buffalo left in the plains, so how can one honor what is not there and what one can have no living relationship with? Is indigenous wisdom connection to your own plants and ecosystems and the wisdom they contain? Or is there something completely unique about reaching across the ocean? Or is the same wisdom to be found in one’s own plants, perhaps with not as much magic and pizzaz, perhaps more plainly? I haven’t any answers to that, honestly.

There *is* precious little indigenous wisdom and spirituality left in the world. Perhaps those of us who find it lacking should rebuild it – find our existing resources, our landscapes, what we uncover as ageless principles for the experience of being human. Understand our own minds and our own relationships with our own lands. Is it hard? Sure. Are there few obvious choices? Yes! Is there no one to lead the way? Mostly! But isn’t it also hard to live in the jungle with disease and poverty and deadly snakes? Isn’t it terribly hard to not have access in an indigenous community to clean water and good food? Isn’t it a struggle for the poor in the Amazon to watch the rich west live with astonishing, embarrassing ease?

Which is harder? Which way lacks more?

Zen teaches that mind is like the sky : even when it’s cloudy, the sky is
always expansive, perfect, and present. The magic of learning is here
always. It never goes away. What are you missing? Who is struggling?

By: Julia Widdop

Julia Widdop — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:01:17 +0000

I’ve been thinking for some time about this quandary. If I pay for spiritual knowledge is it then not “real”? Do I have no “right” to spiritual help because I’m white? White people must have been indigenous to somewhere! The United States remains dominated by the original Puritan settlers who came here from Europe where they were not accepted. Those of us who don’t fit that Christian mold then have no “indigenous” heritage to turn to. I turned to art as my shamanistic practice because there seems to be no accepted place outside the Christian mainstream for a white person.

By: Steve Beyer

Steve Beyer — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:38:00 +0000

Thank you for your memories of Sun Bear. They add a very human dimension to the discussion. I also followed the links to your truly interesting website. I will spend some time browsing and learning more about your remarkably rich background and experience.