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	<title>Comments on: An Experiential Typology of Sacred Plants</title>
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	<link>http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/</link>
	<description>A Guide to Mestizo Shamanism in the Upper Amazon</description>
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		<title>By: Michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/comment-page-1/#comment-536</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/#comment-536</guid>
		<description>Hi Steve.

Love your blog. I just want to add that--in my experience with Ayahuasca in ceremony--I experience all three in fairly equal measure: hallucinations, empathy, and insight, sometimes simultaneously, other times at varying times throughout the course of the ceremony. Perhaps this may have something to do with the admixture? Also, in a recent ceremony I had very subdued hallucinations and more of a strong entheogenicc experience. All this with the same shaman, so the tea is never significantly different. 

Thanks for the Work you do. :) Namaste</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Steve.</p>
<p>Love your blog. I just want to add that&#8211;in my experience with Ayahuasca in ceremony&#8211;I experience all three in fairly equal measure: hallucinations, empathy, and insight, sometimes simultaneously, other times at varying times throughout the course of the ceremony. Perhaps this may have something to do with the admixture? Also, in a recent ceremony I had very subdued hallucinations and more of a strong entheogenicc experience. All this with the same shaman, so the tea is never significantly different. </p>
<p>Thanks for the Work you do. :) Namaste</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Beyer</title>
		<link>http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/comment-page-1/#comment-389</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Beyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/#comment-389</guid>
		<description>This is indeed a fascinating discussion — and the more voices the better. Thank you for joining in. The experiential overlaps are as interesting as the differences. I really like your house analogy. Please stay in touch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is indeed a fascinating discussion — and the more voices the better. Thank you for joining in. The experiential overlaps are as interesting as the differences. I really like your house analogy. Please stay in touch.</p>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/comment-page-1/#comment-386</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 04:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/#comment-386</guid>
		<description>This is a fascinating conversation. What I want to add to it is my experience of relationships with spiritual beings experienced during the use of the teonanácatl mushroom ceremonies arriving to continue working with me in Ayahuasca sessions. While there may be distinct differences in the two types of medicine, I find a mostly common ground in navigating the realms encountered in each. My intention, my focus, my prayers, all these continue to affect the environment itself, and my allies continue to be a force for the direction and events that unfold.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I was actually quietly stunned when I first entered an ayahuasca ceremony to find the landscape of the ceremony so familiar. I guess I would say it&#039;s a bit like still being in a recognizable house with windows and doors etc., but the inhabitants have their own culture and art and music and interests. They have a different history and purpose and experience as a being themselves. Like me they have an established network of casually social and also more intimate types of relationships.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;For me, the experience is more akin to relating to a living being. What becomes important is polite and respectful introduction, quiet conversation in order to understand each other, gift giving and receiving, building trust through clear evidence of honestly held values, and acceptance of each others differences. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The medicines for me are clearly more conscious than I am. They can see and show me layers of reality that I can only witness in their presence.I treat them as both elders and as sacred because of the value I place on what I learn from them, about myself and about my life when seen through their teachings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a fascinating conversation. What I want to add to it is my experience of relationships with spiritual beings experienced during the use of the teonanácatl mushroom ceremonies arriving to continue working with me in Ayahuasca sessions. While there may be distinct differences in the two types of medicine, I find a mostly common ground in navigating the realms encountered in each. My intention, my focus, my prayers, all these continue to affect the environment itself, and my allies continue to be a force for the direction and events that unfold.</p>
<p>I was actually quietly stunned when I first entered an ayahuasca ceremony to find the landscape of the ceremony so familiar. I guess I would say it&#8217;s a bit like still being in a recognizable house with windows and doors etc., but the inhabitants have their own culture and art and music and interests. They have a different history and purpose and experience as a being themselves. Like me they have an established network of casually social and also more intimate types of relationships.</p>
<p>For me, the experience is more akin to relating to a living being. What becomes important is polite and respectful introduction, quiet conversation in order to understand each other, gift giving and receiving, building trust through clear evidence of honestly held values, and acceptance of each others differences. </p>
<p>The medicines for me are clearly more conscious than I am. They can see and show me layers of reality that I can only witness in their presence.I treat them as both elders and as sacred because of the value I place on what I learn from them, about myself and about my life when seen through their teachings.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Beyer</title>
		<link>http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/comment-page-1/#comment-220</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Beyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/#comment-220</guid>
		<description>I agree with you completely, and I particularly like your expression &lt;em&gt;language of respect&lt;/em&gt;. Clearly we have a long way to go. I think perhaps all we can do is develop small pockets of resistance to the cultural arrogance you describe, and model for others an appropriate respect for the sentience that pervades our beautiful small planet.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Thank you for your comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you completely, and I particularly like your expression <em>language of respect</em>. Clearly we have a long way to go. I think perhaps all we can do is develop small pockets of resistance to the cultural arrogance you describe, and model for others an appropriate respect for the sentience that pervades our beautiful small planet.</p>
<p>Thank you for your comment.</p>
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		<title>By: QUANTUMLIFE</title>
		<link>http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/comment-page-1/#comment-219</link>
		<dc:creator>QUANTUMLIFE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/#comment-219</guid>
		<description>Apropos of the linguistic, the bardic, the poetic I would point you to your post here; &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;http://singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/2007/12/peter-gorman-on-plant-spirits.html&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I feel whilst it important to examine these subjects from within the scientific world view, we need to develop a language of respect for the relationships we establish with these &quot;chemical compounds&quot;, or as I am sure your teachers would have it Steve, spirits. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Whilst I have difficulty with much of what Regardie called &quot;cosmic new age foo foo&quot;, i also feel that it clearly an arrogance to suggest we are the only sentience in our biospheres.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apropos of the linguistic, the bardic, the poetic I would point you to your post here; </p>
<p><a href="http://singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/2007/12/peter-gorman-on-plant-spirits.html" rel="nofollow">http://singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/2007/12/peter-gorman-on-plant-spirits.html</a></p>
<p>I feel whilst it important to examine these subjects from within the scientific world view, we need to develop a language of respect for the relationships we establish with these &#8220;chemical compounds&#8221;, or as I am sure your teachers would have it Steve, spirits. </p>
<p>Whilst I have difficulty with much of what Regardie called &#8220;cosmic new age foo foo&#8221;, i also feel that it clearly an arrogance to suggest we are the only sentience in our biospheres.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Beyer</title>
		<link>http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/comment-page-1/#comment-209</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Beyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/#comment-209</guid>
		<description>Thank you for joining the discussion. I am certainly not married to any particular descriptive terminology. I do think we need to develop and refine an experiential typology; if we are going to try and correlate structure and function — which we may or may not be able to do — then the &lt;em&gt;function&lt;/em&gt; part of the correlation needs a lot of work. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;What we should &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; do is cede the descriptive terminology solely to chemists, regulatory agencies, and law enforcement. And I agree completely that we need a better and deeper understanding of the poetic and bardic descriptions of the sacred plants in the indigenous cultures that developed their use.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Thank you for &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://teleomorph.com/&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Teleomorph&lt;/a&gt;, which is, in my opinion, one the most interesting and enjoyable blogs on the Web.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for joining the discussion. I am certainly not married to any particular descriptive terminology. I do think we need to develop and refine an experiential typology; if we are going to try and correlate structure and function — which we may or may not be able to do — then the <em>function</em> part of the correlation needs a lot of work. </p>
<p>What we should <em>not</em> do is cede the descriptive terminology solely to chemists, regulatory agencies, and law enforcement. And I agree completely that we need a better and deeper understanding of the poetic and bardic descriptions of the sacred plants in the indigenous cultures that developed their use.</p>
<p>Thank you for <a HREF="http://teleomorph.com/" REL="nofollow">The Teleomorph</a>, which is, in my opinion, one the most interesting and enjoyable blogs on the Web.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan</title>
		<link>http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/comment-page-1/#comment-207</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/#comment-207</guid>
		<description>While I really appreciate this approach you&#039;ve embarked on, I do actually disagree with your semantics and choice of 3 axises.  &lt;br/&gt;Psilocybin is extremely close to DMT.  In fact, it&#039;s just DMT with an extra hydroxy chunk on it that permits it to escape the digestive monoamine oxidizer.   So this slight structural difference may lead to categorically different effects than pure DMT, I think they&#039;re experiential similarity is more note-worthy than their difference.   &lt;br/&gt;But as per mescaline, salvia, THC, ibogaine, etc, I think we do need to work on better observational descriptions, although we should dig deeper into the linguistic and poetic usages of &#039;scientific&#039; terms, rather than rely solely on the recent tags of hallucinogen, empathogen, deleteriant, psychointegrator, entheogen, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I really appreciate this approach you&#8217;ve embarked on, I do actually disagree with your semantics and choice of 3 axises.  <br />Psilocybin is extremely close to DMT.  In fact, it&#8217;s just DMT with an extra hydroxy chunk on it that permits it to escape the digestive monoamine oxidizer.   So this slight structural difference may lead to categorically different effects than pure DMT, I think they&#8217;re experiential similarity is more note-worthy than their difference.   <br />But as per mescaline, salvia, THC, ibogaine, etc, I think we do need to work on better observational descriptions, although we should dig deeper into the linguistic and poetic usages of &#8217;scientific&#8217; terms, rather than rely solely on the recent tags of hallucinogen, empathogen, deleteriant, psychointegrator, entheogen, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Beyer</title>
		<link>http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/comment-page-1/#comment-206</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Beyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/#comment-206</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I think chemists will continue to classify things by their chemical structure as, of course, they should. What we need, in addition, is a &lt;em&gt;phenomenological&lt;/em&gt; approach to the experience of the sacred plants, which then may — or may not — correlate to chemical structures. For example, it is interesting that peyote, the most empathogenic of the three sacred plants discussed here, contains mescaline, which has a phenethylamine core, like MDMA and unlike, say, psilocybin.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;There are a lot of interesting things to think about here. A very rapid tolerance, known as tachyphylaxis, is produced on repeated administration of mescaline and psilocin, the psychoactive metabolite of psilocybin; yet no such tolerance develops for the hallucinogenic effects of DMT. So, despite their &lt;em&gt;similar&lt;/em&gt; tryptamine cores, there are significant physiological differences between psilocybin and dimethyltryptamine. At the same time, cross-tolerance occurs between mescaline and psilocybin, but not between either of these and DMT. So, despite their &lt;em&gt;differing&lt;/em&gt; phenethylamine and tryptamine cores, there are significant physiological similarities between mescaline and psilocybin.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It may turn out that the three-dimensional descriptive scheme proposed here will turn out to be inadequate or inaccurate. But I think we need to stop assuming that all sacred plants have the same effect. I think that such an assumption — that the effects of dimethyltryptamine &lt;em&gt;ought to be&lt;/em&gt; entheogenic, like those of psilocybin — may have been what troubled &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/2007/12/saga-of-rick-strassman.html&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rick Strassman&lt;/a&gt; in his original DMT experiments.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It is always good to hear from you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I think chemists will continue to classify things by their chemical structure as, of course, they should. What we need, in addition, is a <em>phenomenological</em> approach to the experience of the sacred plants, which then may — or may not — correlate to chemical structures. For example, it is interesting that peyote, the most empathogenic of the three sacred plants discussed here, contains mescaline, which has a phenethylamine core, like MDMA and unlike, say, psilocybin.</p>
<p>There are a lot of interesting things to think about here. A very rapid tolerance, known as tachyphylaxis, is produced on repeated administration of mescaline and psilocin, the psychoactive metabolite of psilocybin; yet no such tolerance develops for the hallucinogenic effects of DMT. So, despite their <em>similar</em> tryptamine cores, there are significant physiological differences between psilocybin and dimethyltryptamine. At the same time, cross-tolerance occurs between mescaline and psilocybin, but not between either of these and DMT. So, despite their <em>differing</em> phenethylamine and tryptamine cores, there are significant physiological similarities between mescaline and psilocybin.</p>
<p>It may turn out that the three-dimensional descriptive scheme proposed here will turn out to be inadequate or inaccurate. But I think we need to stop assuming that all sacred plants have the same effect. I think that such an assumption — that the effects of dimethyltryptamine <em>ought to be</em> entheogenic, like those of psilocybin — may have been what troubled <a HREF="http://singingtotheplants.blogspot.com/2007/12/saga-of-rick-strassman.html" REL="nofollow">Rick Strassman</a> in his original DMT experiments.</p>
<p>It is always good to hear from you.</p>
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		<title>By: E</title>
		<link>http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/comment-page-1/#comment-205</link>
		<dc:creator>E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 07:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2009/01/an-experiential-typology-of-sacred-plants/#comment-205</guid>
		<description>I agree with you that these sacred plants deserve different classifications than what they currently have. Having intimate knowledge with each of these three medicines, I can attest to their innate differences.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;However necessary a reclassification would be, at this moment it doesn&#039;t seem like the scientific community would be willing to take steps toward this. Now I&#039;m no scientist (yet) so I may not know what I&#039;m talking about; while you make a good argument, it seems like the scientific community would not be willing to redefine these for a couple of reasons, one being that I don&#039;t think they would rearrange classifications in which a lot of the evidence is from subjective accounts and two, because of the already existing bias against these substances. But I don&#039;t know for sure, do you think there is enough existing &#039;concrete&#039; chemical knowledge to prove that these classifications need to be reconsidered? Whatever the case is, it doesn&#039;t mean we should give up the quest! More and better knowledge of these medicines will help society at large to understand that they are not inherently &#039;bad&#039;, and all knowledge is worth having.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;You quoted, “the capacity of the mind to see more than it can tell, to experience more than it can explicate, to believe in and be impressed with more than it can rationally justify, to experience boundlessness and ‘boundaryless’ events, from the banal to the profound.” I just wanted to say, wow. That is a good quote you dug up. This is a very succinct definition of the overwhelming feeling I experience in many of my encounters with medicine. I will be saving that to use later. :-)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I wanted to let you know of an interesting journal that I have been reading for a while; it is the Journal of Ethnobiology and Ethnomedicine. You may already be familiar with it but just in case- http://www.ethnobiomed.com/ there it is.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Great post, thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you that these sacred plants deserve different classifications than what they currently have. Having intimate knowledge with each of these three medicines, I can attest to their innate differences.</p>
<p>However necessary a reclassification would be, at this moment it doesn&#8217;t seem like the scientific community would be willing to take steps toward this. Now I&#8217;m no scientist (yet) so I may not know what I&#8217;m talking about; while you make a good argument, it seems like the scientific community would not be willing to redefine these for a couple of reasons, one being that I don&#8217;t think they would rearrange classifications in which a lot of the evidence is from subjective accounts and two, because of the already existing bias against these substances. But I don&#8217;t know for sure, do you think there is enough existing &#8216;concrete&#8217; chemical knowledge to prove that these classifications need to be reconsidered? Whatever the case is, it doesn&#8217;t mean we should give up the quest! More and better knowledge of these medicines will help society at large to understand that they are not inherently &#8216;bad&#8217;, and all knowledge is worth having.</p>
<p>You quoted, “the capacity of the mind to see more than it can tell, to experience more than it can explicate, to believe in and be impressed with more than it can rationally justify, to experience boundlessness and ‘boundaryless’ events, from the banal to the profound.” I just wanted to say, wow. That is a good quote you dug up. This is a very succinct definition of the overwhelming feeling I experience in many of my encounters with medicine. I will be saving that to use later. :-)</p>
<p>I wanted to let you know of an interesting journal that I have been reading for a while; it is the Journal of Ethnobiology and Ethnomedicine. You may already be familiar with it but just in case- <a href="http://www.ethnobiomed.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ethnobiomed.com/</a> there it is.</p>
<p>Great post, thank you!</p>
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